Transcript Xunzi - Trinity University

Mengzi and Xunzi
371-289 BCE
“second sage” of Confucianism
contemporary of Zhuangzi
Mencius
孟子
The Internal Confucian Debate on Human Nature


Mengzi / Meng-tzu: humans as moral agents
Xunxi / Hsün-tzu: human nature equated with self-interest
Early Chinese Views of Human Nature
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
neither good nor evil (Gaozi)
equal parts of good and evil (a Han theory)
some persons good, some persons evil (Wang Chong)
evil (Xunzi)
good (Mencius)
Early Chinese Views of Human Nature
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
neither good nor evil (Gaozi)
equal parts of good and evil (a Han theory)
some persons good, some persons evil (Wang Chong)
evil (Xunzi)
good (Mencius)
Gaozi

Gaozi said, “Human nature is like swirling water. Open a passage to the east, and it
flows east. Open a passage to the west, and it flows west. The basic indeterminacy
of good and evil in human nature is just like the basic indeterminacy of east and
west in the flow of water.” (6.A.2)
Water flowing west
Water flowing east
Does water flow east “naturally”? What is the analogy to human nature?

Mencius said, “Water certainly has no particular tendency to flow east or west, but
can the same be said of flowing up or down? The basic goodness of human nature
is just like the downward flow of water. There is no more a human being utterly
lacking in goodness than there is such a thing as water that does not flow
downward.
VI.A.2
Does water flow down “naturally”? What is the analogy to human nature?
Water flowing down
Water flowing down
Can water flow up? What is the analogy to human nature?

“Now, with my hands or my feet I can splash water over my head; by channeling it, I
can direct it all the way to the top of a hill. But is this the basic nature of water?
No. These results are due to external force. The fact that people can be made to
do evil reflects the same violation of their basic nature.” (6.A.2)
Human nature is good
Every person has the natural inclination to do good, and
this natural inclination is ren (perfect co-humanity)
“What I mean by saying it is good is that there is that in our nature which is spontaneously part of us and can
become good. The fact that we can become bad is not a defect in our natural endowment.” (6.A.6. Eno translation)
Quoting Mencius:
“To be human (人) is to be co-human (仁)”

Gaozi said: “Human nature is like a willow tree;
righteousness is like cups and bowls. To make human
nature benevolent and righteous is like making a willow
tree into cups and bowls.” (6.A.1)
Human nature
Benevolent
Righteous
Willow tree
Cups
Bowls
Human nature
Benevolent
Righteous
Willow tree
Cups
Bowls

Mengzi said: “Can you make cups and bowls from willow wood by
following its natural grain or is it only after you have hacked the willow
wood that you can make a cup or bowl?”

“If you must hack the willow to make cups and bowls from it, must you
hack people in order to make them humane and righteous? ”

Answer to the question:
6.A.1

For Gaozi ….
For Mengzi….
Natural Goodness




Humans all have the heart of compassion 惻隱之心.
Humans all have the heart of disdain for evil 羞惡之心.
Humans all have the heart of respect 恭敬之心.
Humans all have the heart of approval and disapproval
是非之心. (6.A.6)
惻隱 cè yǐn
羞惡 xiū è
恭敬 gōng jìng
是非 shì fēi
Compassion – Concern (Commiseration)
Disdain for evil -- Shame
Respect – Yielding (Deference)
Approval and disapproval -- Judgment
This is from ch. 6
This “Heart” defines “human nature”

“Clearly, one who did not have the heart of concern would be inhuman. One who
did not have the heart of shame for wrong-doing would be inhuman. One who did
not have the heart which places others before oneself would be inhuman. And
one who did not have the heart which distinguishes between right and wrong
would be inhuman."

“One who lacked a sense of dismay in such a case could simply not be a person.
And I could further show that anyone who lacked the moral sense of shame
could not be a person; anyone who lacked a moral sense of deference could not
be a person; anyone who lacked a moral sense of right and wrong could not be
a person.” (Eno translation)

(2.A.6)
This is from ch. 2
What do people have in common?

心之所同然者何也？
謂理也，義也。
聖人先得我心之所同然耳。
故理義之悅我心，猶芻豢之悅我口

Mencius (6.A.7 – last paragraph)
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心之所同然者何也？
謂理也，義也。
聖人先得我心之所同然耳。
故理義之悅我心，猶芻豢之悅我口




心之所同然者何也？
謂理也，義也。
聖人先得我心之所同然耳。
故理義之悅我心，猶芻豢之悅我口

心之所同然者何也？
謂理也，義也。
聖人先得我心之所同然耳。
故理義之悅我心，猶芻豢之悅我口

Eno translates this: last paragraph of 6.A.7







心之所同然者何也？
謂理也，義也。
聖人先得我心之所同然耳。
故理義之悅我心，猶芻豢之悅我口
故理義之悅我心，猶芻豢之悅我口
理義之悅我心，猶
芻豢之悅我口
chúhuàn 指牛羊猪狗等
“Righteousness and virtue delight my heart just like meat delights my mouth!”
悅 yuè to please
(like food, or music, or beauty)
The “heart” of goodness




Mencius said: “All persons have a heart which cannot bear to see the suffering of others.
The Sage Kings had such a heart, and their governments did not permit the suffering of the
people. In ruling the kingdom, if you manifest this heart to implement such a government,
you can hold the world in the palm of your hand.
“What I mean by saying that ‘all persons have a heart which cannot bear to see the suffering
of others’ is this:
Anyone who suddenly came upon a toddler about to fall into a well would have a heart of
alarm and concern. And we cannot say that this heart arises from wanting to be favored by
the parents, or from seeking the praise of one's friends and community, or from hoping to
avoid a reputation for callousness.
“Clearly, one who did not have the heart of concern would be inhuman. One who did not
have the heart of shame for wrong-doing would be inhuman. One who did not have the
heart which places others before oneself would be inhuman. And one who did not have the
heart which distinguishes between right and wrong would be inhuman.”
II.A.6 The Sprouts of Virtue
feelings as moral inclinations (the “four sprouts”)
1.
2.
3.
4.
concern gives rise to jen/ren (co-humanity)
shame gives rise to yi (righteousness)
yielding gives rise to li (propriety)
judgment gives rise to chih/zhi (wisdom)
Now the sense of dismay on another’s behalf is the seed of ren planted
within us, the sense of shame is the seed of righteousness (yi), the sense of
deference is the seed of li, and the sense of right and wrong is the seed of
wisdom. Everyone possesses these four moral senses just as they possess
their four limbs. (Eno translation)
2.A.6 – repeated at 6.A.6
The Developmental Aspect
1.
2.
3.
4.
concern gives rise to ren (co-humanity)
shame gives rise to yi (righteousness)
yielding gives rise to li (propriety)
judgment gives rise to zhi (wisdom)
(Discussing evil kings with Gaozi): “As for their
essence, they can become good. This is what I
mean by calling their natures good. As for their
not becoming good, this is not the fault of their
potential.” (6.A.6)
feelings as moral inclinations (the “four sprouts”)

“The heart of concern is the sprout of ren (benevolence). The heart of shame is
the sprout of yi (righteousness). The heart of yielding is the sprout of li
(propriety). The heart of judgment is the sprout of zhi (wisdom).”

“Having these four ‘sprouts’ is like having arms and legs. If you say that you cannot
act upon them, you are discrediting yourself, just as if you say that a ruler cannot act
upon them, you are discrediting his rule. Anyone who has these four sprouts within
themselves knows how to develop them and perfect them: they are like the
initial spark of a fire, or the first waters of an open spring. If you can
perfect them, you will be able to embrace the whole world with your virtue; if you
do not perfect them, you will not even be able to serve your own parents.” (2.A.6)

the force of these senses will burst through us like a wildfire first catching
or a spring first bubbling forth through the ground (Eno translation)
Things people (including “sages”) have in common

Mouths & tastes
Ears & pleasure in listening
Eyes & standards of beauty
Concern
Shame
Yielding
Judgment

“Goodness”?
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The meaning of xing (性)


吾生於陵而安於陵，故也；
長於水而安於水，性也
(Zhuangzi’s swimmer 《達生》)

Having been born on land I am at ease on land; that was
originally in me.

Having grown up in water, I am at ease in water; that is
my nature.
性
“Xing is not a
superordinate and univocal
principle that inheres in all
human beings at brith.
While there is a givenness
to xing as an inherent
organizing structure that
persons in general develop
after conception, it also
suggests the dynamic
process of becoming
human” (p. 189)
Metaphors for 性 in Mencius


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
Growing trees and animals
Ripening grain
Cultivating crops
Flowing water
“Strictly speaking, a
person is not a sort of
being, but first and
foremost a doing or
making, and only
derivatively and
retrospectively,
something done”
(ibid., p. 190)
So, why are some people evil?

“In years of plenty, most young men are lazy; in years of
poverty, most young men are cruel” (6.A.7)

“The trees of Ox Mountain were once beautiful. But
because it bordered on a large state, hatchets and axes
besieged it. Could it remain verdant?...” (6.A.8)

“Those who follow their greater part [the heart] become
great humans. Those who follow their petty part [the
ears and eyes] become petty humans” (6.A.15)
Review

What do people have in common? Goodness?

If so, then why are some people evil?

Following Zhuangzi’s definition of xing (性) (human
nature), what does Mengzi mean when he says that
“human nature is good”?

What was Gaozi’s view, and how does Mengzi’s differ?
end
Xunzi
荀子
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5. “Against Physiognomy”
9. “The Regulations of a True King”
17. “Discourse on Heaven” 天論
19. “Discourse on Ritual" 禮論
21. “Undoing Fixation" 解蔽
23. “Human Nature is Bad” 性惡
天論
17. Discourse on Heaven
“Strange Events”
“Marvel at them but do not fear them”
Stars fall
Trees make strange sounds
The sun and moon are eclipsed
Wind and rain do not come at their proper time
Strange stars appear
“such things occur once in a while with
the changes of Heaven and earth and
the mutations of yin and yang”
“Marvel at them and fear them as well”
The plowing is poorly done and the crops suffer
The weeding is badly done and the harvest fails
The government is evil and loses the support of the people
The fields are neglected and the crops badly tended
Grain is being imported from abroad and sold at a high price
People are starving and die by the roadside
Government commands are unenlightened
Public works are undertaken at the wrong season
Agriculture is not properly attended to
The people are called away for labor in the wrong season
Cows and horses are left to breed
Ritual principles are not obeyed
Family affairs and outside affairs are not properly separated
Men and women mingle wantonly
Fathers and sons begin to doubt each other
Superior and inferior become estranged
Bands of invaders enter the state
“portents such as these are born from disorder…
the reasons for their occurrence may be found very
close at hand”
Prayer and Sacrifice

雩而雨，何也？曰：無何也，猶不雩而雨也。日月食而救之，天旱而雩，卜筮
然後決大事，非以為得求也，以文之也。故君子以為文，而百姓以為神。以為
文則吉，以為神則凶也。

One performs the rain sacrifice and it rains….

…then one will have ill fortune.

雩而雨，何也？曰：無何也，猶不雩而雨也。日月食而救之，天旱而雩，卜筮
然後決大事，非以為得求也，以文之也。故君子以為文，而百姓以為神。以為
文則吉，以為神則凶也。

You pray for rain and it rains. The reason? I say: No reason. It’s as if you did not
pray and it rained anyway.



The sun and the moon are eclipsed and you try to save them.
The sun beats down and you pray for rain.
You divine before making a big decision.

But nothing is accomplished from any of this – they are performances (文).

That’s why a junzi sees them as “performances,” while the common people see
them as “[acts of the] gods.” To seem them as [human] performances is fortunate;
to see them as divine [acts] is unfortunate.

雩而雨，何也？曰：無何也，猶不雩而雨也。日月食而救之，天旱而雩，卜筮
然後決大事，非以為得求也，以文之也。故君子以為文，而百姓以為神。以為
文則吉，以為神則凶也。

You pray for rain and it rains. The reason? I say: No reason. It’s as if you did not
pray and it rained anyway.



The sun and the moon are eclipsed and you try to save them.
The sun beats down and you pray for rain.
You divine before making a big decision.

But nothing is accomplished from any of this – they are performances (文).

That’s why a junzi sees them as “performances,” while the common people see
them as “[acts of the] gods.” To seem them as [human] performances is fortunate;
to see them as divine [acts] is unfortunate.

雩而雨，何也？曰：無何也，猶不雩而雨也。日月食而救之，天旱而雩，卜筮
然後決大事，非以為得求也，以文之也。故君子以為文，而百姓以為神。以為
文則吉，以為神則凶也。

You pray for rain and it rains. The reason? I say: No reason. It’s as if you did not
pray and it rained anyway.



The sun and the moon are eclipsed and you try to save them.
The sun beats down and you pray for rain.
You divine before making a big decision.

But nothing is accomplished from any of this – they are performances (文).

That’s why a junzi sees them as “performances,” while the common people see
them as “[acts of the] gods.” To seem them as [human] performances is fortunate;
to see them as divine [acts] is unfortunate.

雩而雨，何也？曰：無何也，猶不雩而雨也。日月食而救之，天旱而雩，卜筮
然後決大事，非以為得求也，以文之也。故君子以為文，而百姓以為神。以為
文則吉，以為神則凶也。

You pray for rain and it rains. The reason? I say: No reason. It’s as if you did not
pray and it rained anyway.



The sun and the moon are eclipsed and you try to save them.
The sun beats down and you pray for rain.
You divine before making a big decision.

But nothing is accomplished from any of this – they are performances (文).

That’s why a junzi sees them as “performances,” while the common people see
them as “[acts of the] gods.” To seem them as [human] performances is fortunate;
to see them as divine [acts] is unfortunate.
Xunzi’s religious skepticism
“Always when people see ghosts, it is at times when they
are aroused and excited, and they make their judgments
in moments when their faculties are confused and
blinded”
So… what is the value and purpose of religious ritual?
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天有其時
地有其財
人有其治
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夫是之謂能參
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Heaven has its “time”
Earth has its “material”
Man has his “governance”
And that’s called
“forming a triad”
禮論 … 性惡
19. Discourse on Ritual
23. Human Nature is Bad
Mengzi and Xunzi

Mencius: feelings as moral inclinations
(the “four sprouts”)

Xunzi: “Human Nature is Bad” (ch. 23)
What is Xunzi’s line of argument in this essay?
Xunzi’s view of human nature
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
人生而有欲
“Man is born with desires”
欲
What does Xunzi include among these yű?
Xunzi’s view of human nature
 人之性惡，其善者偽也
evil
good

性 human nature

偽 artifice, ornament, intentional action,
conscious action, deliberate effort
《性惡》
《性惡》

“By nature, people are selfish.* Without teachers and standards of conduct, they
see things only in terms of benefit to themselves. And if the age in which they live is
chaotic, they acquire its chaotic practices.”
*
生而有好利焉
Hutton: “People’s nature is such that they are born with a fondness for profit.”

先王惡其亂也 The sage kings despised this chaos,

故制禮義以分之 and so they established the rites to
differentiate them [according to class],

以養人之欲 to corral people’s desires,
給人之求 and provide to them their proper satisfaction.

“The Regulations of a True King” (ch. 9)

今人之性惡，必將待師
法然後正，得禮義然後
治


今人之性惡
必將




待師法
然後正
得禮義
然後治

Similarly, since man’s
nature is evil, it must wait
for the instructions of a
teacher before it can
become upright, and for
the guidance of ritual
principles before it can
become orderly.


今人之性惡
必將




待師法
然後正
得禮義
然後治

Similarly, since man’s
nature is evil, it must wait
for the instructions of a
teacher before it can
become upright, and for
the guidance of ritual
principles before it can
become orderly.


今人之性惡
必將




待師法 (fa)
然後正 (zheng)
得禮義
然後治

Similarly, since man’s
nature is evil, it must wait
for the instructions of a
teacher before it can
become upright, and for
the guidance of ritual
principles before it can
become orderly.


今人之性惡
必將




待師法
然後正
得禮義 (li-yi)
然後治 (zhi)

Similarly, since man’s
nature is evil, it must wait
for the instructions of a
teacher before it can
become upright, and for
the guidance of ritual
principles before it can
become orderly.
Rites!
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Clothing
Deportment
Attitude
Implements
Offerings
Gestures

Similarly, since man’s
nature is evil, it must wait
for the instructions of a
teacher before it can
become upright, and for
the guidance of ritual
principles before it can
become orderly.
Becoming “good”

Warped wood

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

Blunt metal


Laid against a straightening board
Steamed
Forced into shape
Whetted on a grindstone
Sharpened
end
“Differentiation”



Water and fire possess qi, but they are inanimate.
Plants and trees are animate, but they lack consciousness.
Birds and beasts have consciousness, but they are amoral.

Persons have qi, animation, consciousness, and a sense of morality, and that is why
we are the noblest beings in the world.

We are not as strong as oxen or as swift as horses, and yet they are used by us.
Why? Because we form societies and they do not.

Why are we able to form societies? Because we differentiate among ourselves.

And how are we able to differentiate among ourselves? With morality.






If morality is the basis for social differentiation, there will be harmony;
if there is harmony, there will be unity;
if there is unity, there will be power;
if there is power, there will be strength;
if there is strength, there will be the ability to have dominion over all things.
That is why we live secure in palaces and houses.
queries
“A Discussion of Rites”
1.
2.
3.
What is the relationship
between rites and desires?
What is the effect of ritual
upon desire?
What is the relationship
between rites and emotions
(devotion, longing,
depression, melancholy, grief,
loyalty, faith, love, respect)?
Do funeral rites affect the
dead? What then is their
purpose?
“Human Nature is Evil”
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
What are the components
of human nature?
What are the consequences
of the public expression of
natural tendencies?
What is “goodness”? How
is it attained? What kinds of
people are good, and why?
What are the origins of the
means by which goodness is
attained?
How are human nature and
“Heaven” related?